https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/2017/thaler-interview.html

Richard H. Thaler - Interview

"Our research has greatly changed pensions systems all around the world"

Telephone interview with Richard H. Thaler following the announcement of the 2017 Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The interviewer is Adam Smith, Chief Scientific Officer of Nobel Media. Richard H. Thaler describes some of the impacts of his work on behavioural economics in this telephone interview recorded immediately after the public announcement of the award of his Prize in Economic Sciences. He also explains the concept of the ‘'nudge', and looks forward to being in Stockholm again with his old friend Daniel Kahneman, Laureate in Economic Sciences from 2002.

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[Richard H. Thaler]: Hello

[Adam Smith]: Hi, this is Adam Smith, calling from Nobelprize.org, the website of the Nobel Prize in Stockholm.

[RT]: Yes.

[AS]: Well first of all, congratulations on the award of the Prize in Economic Sciences.

[RT]: Thank you.

[AS]: May I ask how the news reached you?

[RT]: It woke me up.

[AS]: [Laughs]. Nice way to be woken.

[RT]: Yeah. It's good to see Sweden on your cell phone.

[AS]: Of course. People will perhaps best know you for your book Nudge, published almost a decade ago. For those who don't know could you describe what a nudge is?

[RT]: A nudge is some feature of the environment that changes the behaviour of humans but would not change the behaviour of rational economic agents, what we call Econs. So, for example, the research I was talking about in Stockholm a couple of weeks ago was about two nudges in the Swedish pension system, one was creating default funds that people would take if they didn't make a choice, and then the other was an advertising campaign encouraging people to not to take the default. The paper that we're now writing is sort of a battle of those two nudges.

[AS]: Right, yes, What's your favourite example of a successful nudge?

[RT]: Well you know, I would say probably the most successful has been the use of what we call automatic enrolment in pension plans. Meaning the default is to join rather than not to join.

[AS]: Right.

[RT]: For example this has been used in a recent roll out of the national pension saving plan in the UK, and the enrolment rates are well over 90%.

[AS]: It's 15 years since your friend Daniel Kahneman was awarded the Prize. I suppose since then what we've seen is an absolute blossoming of the field of behavioural economics. Has it reached a point do you think where it can be used for making tools for setting public policy?

[RT]: Well sure. I mean that's what somebody asked me to come over to Stockholm to talk about three weeks ago. And I think our research has greatly changed pension systems all around the world. The idea of Save More Tomorrow where you invite people to commit themselves to saving move sometime in the future has been quite successful. We think there may be as many as 25 million people in the US involved in that programme. Countries all around the world, starting with the UK, have started behavioural insight teams, often referred to as nudge units. And they seem to be doing lots of good.

[AS]: Just a last thing, we all like to think we're different don't we? But somehow your work brings us all into a unifying theory. Is there a kind of disparity there between people's individual belief in their own individuality and ...

[RT]: Oh sure. People are different. The key finding from Kahneman and Tversky's research is not that everybody is the same but that on average we tend to err in the same direction. So we all think that we're going to finish projects sooner that we will. Although some people procrastinate more than others.

[AS]: Yeah. I think that describes me.

[RT]: Yeah. And my home contractor at the moment.

[AS]: [Laughs]. You sound very calm, how do you feel?

[RT]: Uhh. Well, not calm.

[AS]: Master of understatement. Will we look forward to welcoming you to Stockholm in December?

[RT]: Uh yes. I had the pleasure of coming with Prof. Kahneman and he keeps telling me I better win it soon because he wants to go back. So it'll be a pleasure to ask him to join me again.

[AS]: Oh that's gorgeous. And you will reverse roles ...

[RT]: Yes.

[AS]: ... See it from different perspective. OK, well, we very much look forward to having you here. Once again, congratulations.

[RT]: Thank you.

[AS]: And thank you for speaking to me. Bye bye.

“我们的研究极大改变了世界各地的养老金体系”

2017年瑞典国家银行纪念阿尔弗雷德·诺贝尔经济学奖揭晓后对理查德·H.·塞勒进行了电话采访。采访人是诺贝尔传媒部科学总监亚当·史密斯。经济学奖的结果公布后立即录制了这段电话采访，理查德·H.·塞勒在采访中阐述了他的工作对行为经济学的若干影响。他还解释了“nudge”的概念，并期待与他的老朋友2002年经济学奖得主丹尼尔·卡尼曼再次聚首斯德哥尔摩。

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理查德·H.·塞勒（下简称RT）：你好。

亚当·史密斯（下简称AS）：你好，我是亚当·史密斯，从斯德哥尔摩诺贝尔奖官网Nobelprize.org打来电话。

RT：好的。

AS：首先，祝贺您荣获诺贝尔经济学奖。

RT：谢谢你。

AS：我能不能问一下你怎么得到这条消息的？

RT：它把我弄醒了。

AS：【大笑】这种叫醒方式真好。

RT：是啊。在你手机上看到瑞典太好了。

AS：当然。人们很可能因你近十年前出版的《Nudge》这本书熟知你。你能不能给还不知道的人讲讲什么是nudge？

RT：nudge是环境的某种特性，它改变人的行为，但不会改变理性的经济因子，我们称之为Econ。那么举例来说，我几周前在斯德哥尔摩讨论的研究就是关于瑞典养老金体系中的两个nudge，一是创立预设基金，如果人们没有做出选择，就领预设基金；另一个是鼓励人们不领预设基金的宣传活动。我们正在写的论文是关于这两个nudge之间的斗法。

AS：对，是的。你最喜欢的成功nudge的例子是什么？

RT：嗯你知道吗，我要说可能最成功的例子是在养老金计划中使用我们所称的“自动加入”。意思是默认加入，而不是不加入。

AS：哦。

RT：例如，最近英国启动的全国养老金储蓄计划就用上了，参加率妥妥地超过90%。

AS：你的朋友丹尼尔·卡尼曼荣获诺贝尔经济学奖至今已有15年。我想从那以后我们看到行为经济学领域欣欣向荣。你认为它有没有达到能用于产生制定公共政策的工具的程度？

RT：那必须的。我的意思是三周前有人请我来斯德哥尔摩正是谈这个问题。我认为我们的研究极大改变了世界各地的养老金体系。我们提出“明天存更多”的想法，也就是邀请人们承诺在将来的某个时间点存更多钱，事实证明它非常成功。我们认为美国也许有多达2500万人参与了该项目。从英国开始，全世界很多国家都已开始成立行为洞察团队，常称为nudge单位。他们看起来带来了很多好处。

AS：最后一点，我们都喜欢认为我们是不同的是吧？但不知怎么你的工作把我们都带进了一个划一的理论。在人个性中的个人信念和 ...之间是不是有种分歧？

RT：噢那肯定。人是不同的。卡尼曼和特维尔斯基研究的重要发现不是说每个人都一样，而是一般来讲我们往往犯同一方向的错误。因此我们都认为我们将很快完成计划，实际上却没这么快。一些人比其他人更拖拉。

AS：是啊。我想我就是那样的。

RT：是啊。现在我家雇的建筑队也是这样。

AS：【大笑】你听起来很平静。你感觉如何？

RT：呃。并不平静。

AS：举重若轻的大师。我们能欢迎你12月来斯德哥尔摩吗？

RT：啊是的。我很高兴与卡尼曼教授联袂前往，他反复跟我说我最好尽快获奖，因为他想回到那。所以我真高兴能请他和我同去。

AS：噢那太棒了。这次你们的角色将对调 ...

RT：是的。

AS： ...从不同角度观看。好了，我们非常期待在这里见到二位。再次祝贺。

RT：谢谢你。

AS：感谢你接受我们采访。再见。

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