翻译：芃草子

译者说明：这篇译文其实是几年前的旧东西。当时，自己对基耶斯洛夫斯基的作品非常迷恋，买书、淘碟，越看他的作品就越觉得这个导演的伟大。一次，偶然在一家外国网站看到这篇文章，发现对自己理解基氏的作品特别是《三色》有特别大的帮助，于是花了几天的业余时间把它译了出来，校译了两遍。今天再去看这篇译文，仍然惊讶于当时自己那种热情（类似的热情还出现在若干年前自己研究训诂学和国学时）。

问：你为什么会对法国的箴言——自由、平等、博爱感兴趣？

基耶斯洛夫斯基（以下简称kk）：与我对“十诫”感兴趣的原因是完全一样的。那十条诫律表达了生活的本质，而这三个词——自由、平等、博爱也是一样。无数人曾为这些信念而死。我们打算搞明白人们在实际生活中是如何认识这些信念的以及这些信念在今天意味着什么。

问：所以，让你感兴趣的是生活。你离开你最初的职业——一名设计师而进入洛兹电影学校专攻纪录片，就是因为这个吗？

kk：那时，我打算通过影像去实时地描述这个世界，去表达我的感受。那是一个属于Richard Leacock, Joris Ivens等伟大的纪录片导演的时代：今天，电视已经终结了这种形式的电影。电视工业不喜欢去思考这个世界的复杂性。它更喜欢用简单的观念进行报道：这是白的，那是黑的；这是好的，那是坏的……

问：你是如何从整体关联上去构思《三色》的？

kk：我们曾非常认真地思考过这些理念，思考它们在每个人的生活中是如何起作用的，但是，这是来自个体的视角。这些理念与人的本性是相抵触的。当你在现实中和它们发生关系的时候，你不知道如何和它们共存。人们真的需要自由、平等、博爱吗？它不是人们的某种说话习惯？我们总是离不开个体的、私人化的视角的。

问：所以，你转向了虚构——你仍然在近距离地贴近生活。

kk：我认为生活比文学作品更充满智慧。在纪录片上花费了大量时间成为我工作中的一种幸运和羁绊。拍摄记录片时，脚本仅仅用来指明你处在什么方位。没有人知道故事会怎么发展下去。拍摄时，主要要做的是尽可能多地摄取素材。纪录片是在剪辑中诞生的。今天，我认为我仍然在以同样的方式工作着。我拍摄的实际上不是故事——胶片上仅仅包含了一些构成故事的要素。当你拍摄时，那些脚本中没有的细节常常不期而然的出现．在剪辑过程中，许多细节会被剪掉。

问：如果你太多地采用了这种思考方式，你不认为你可能仅仅因为某些借口就放弃使用脚本吗？

kk：不，一点也不会。绝对不会。对我来说，脚本很关键，因为它是同与我一起工作的人交流的手段。它可能只有一个大纲，但是它是不可或缺的基础。有了它之后，很多东西可能会改变：某些想法可能被舍弃，片尾可能变成片头，但是脚本里的东西——所有的想法还可以看到他们原先的样子。

问：你称自己为一个艺匠而不是艺术家。为什么？

kk：真正的艺术家寻找答案。艺匠的知识限于他的技艺范围内。比如，我对镜头、剪辑室很熟悉。我知道摄影机上的不同按钮是做什么用的。我或多或少地知道如何使用扩音器。这些我都知道，可是那不是真正的知识。真正的知识是知道如何生活，为何而生活……以及诸如此类的事情。

问：你是拍完一部，再间隔一段时间去拍《三色》中的另一部的吗？

kk：我们是从《蓝》开始的，于1992年9月至11月间拍摄。最后一天，我们开始拍《白》，因为法庭那场戏需要这两部电影中的某些角色一起出现。虽然很难在巴黎的法庭中拍戏，但是因为我们有许可，我们利用了这一便利。因为《白》的第一部分发生在巴黎，所以我们很快拍摄完了《白》30%的戏。然后，我们离开巴黎去波兰拍摄剩下的部分。休息十天后，我们去日内瓦开始拍摄《红》，我们于1993年3月至5月在那里拍摄。

问：《三色》的剧本那时已经完全写好了吗？

kk：剧本是在拍摄前一天完成的，也就是6个月以前。别忘了，我们还得四处寻找外景地，这是要花费时间的。你还得考虑100场戏，得挑三个国家和三个不同的摄影师。你还得为了达到制片人的满意进行筹划和准备。

问：三部影片都是同一个班底吗？

kk：摄影师是不一样的：Slawomir Idziak拍摄《蓝》；Edward Kojinski拍摄《白》（它曾经和Andrzej Wajda一起搭档过几次）；Piotr Sobocinski拍摄《红》，他很年轻但是很有才华。其他人，负责声效、场景设计和音乐的，都是一样的。这个班底在拍摄《十诫》时运转的非常好，所以我们的工作原则和以前一样。

问：你在《三色》拍摄完毕前就着手剪辑了吗？

kk：对，从拍摄的第一周我就开始剪辑了。甚至在拍摄间歇我也进行剪辑。

问：你的电影越具体和真实，好像他们就越形而上。你越来越多地采用了特写镜头，你比任何时候都更更接近人物和物体。好像你在寻找那些有形的或者说实在的东西以外的东西。

kk：的确，我喜欢获得那些有形的东西以外的东西。但是，那很难做到。非常难。

问：你要捕捉的是什么呢？

kk：也许是灵魂。自始自终，我要捕捉的是我还没有发现的真相。也可能是流动不居不可阻留的时间。

问：影片主人公的名字有特别的含义吗？

kk：我曾试着起一些既容易被观众记住又能反映人物性格的名字。在实际生活中，有一些名字让我们感到吃惊，因为这些名字跟主人一点不符。

问：至于《双生薇萝尼卡》——你是受福音书启发而在头脑中构思出“薇萝尼卡”这个人物吗？

kk：受福音书启发那是过后的事情了，当我选择用用这个名字的时候还不是这样。虽然这个名字一直处于我的无意识之中，但它更像是一种与所做事情的绝佳联结。对于《红》来说，我曾问过Irene Jacob(译注：《红》女主人公的扮演者)，如果她是一个小女孩，她喜欢什么名字。对于《白》来说，我给男主人公起的名字是Karol（波兰语为“Charlie”），作为对卓别林的敬意。这个既天真又精明的小人物有“卓别林”似的一面。

问：《十诫》中充满了偶然的相遇。有些人终于相遇了有些人则错过了。某部《三色》中的人物好像会和另一部中的人物偶然相遇。

kk：我喜欢偶然的相遇——生活中到处都是偶然的相遇。每一天，你都意识不到你错过了一些你应该去熟悉的人。就在此时，在这个小咖啡馆，我们就坐在陌生人的身旁。这里的每个人都会起身然后离开，继续自己的生活。他们永远都不会再见。如果他们遇见了，他们也不会意识到这并不是第一次相见。《三色》中的这些遭遇没有《杀人短片》中的遭遇重要，在那部片子中，关键的事情是，那个未来的杀人者和律师没有能够相遇。这些遭遇被放进《三色》中主要是为了让许多影迷高兴，他们喜欢去寻找电影中提及的那些地点。这对他们来说就像一种游戏。

问：《三色》中的每一部都有一个镜头，就是一个老人试图把一个瓶子扔进垃圾箱中。这暗示什么？

kk：我只是想到，有一天我们都会老，都会没有力气把瓶子放进一个容器中。在《蓝》中，为了避免让这个镜头看起来太过说教，我故意让人们看到这么个形象。我这样想，Julie(译注：《蓝》中女主人公的名字)没有看到这个老人，没有意识到生活的前面有东西在等着她。她太年轻了。她不知道某一天她会需要某个人的帮助。在《白》中，Karol嘲笑这个老人，因为他意识到这个人活得比他还糟糕。在《红》中，我们看到了Valentine的怜悯之情。

问：Valentine懂得博爱的价值，Julie会再次学会去爱。对于Karol and Dominique（译注：Dominique，《白》中女主人公的名字），我们也可以这样说。甚至当我们谈论自由和博爱的时候，总会说到爱。

kk：告诉你真相吧，在我的作品中，爱总是和人相冲突。爱会造成两难的情况。爱会带来痛苦。有了痛苦，我们无法生活，没有了痛苦，我们也无法生活。你很难在我的作品中找到幸福的结尾。

问：不过，《红》的剧本好像表明你相信博爱的存在。《蓝》的结尾是乐观的，因为Julie会哭了。

kk：你这样认为吗？对我来说，乐观主义是一对恋人手挽手走进日落的余晖中或者日出的霞光中。——随便你选。但是，如果你发现《蓝》是乐观的，为什么不呢？矛盾的是，我认为真正拥有幸福结尾的是《白》，尽管它是一部黑色喜剧。

问：一个男人去看望他关在监狱里的妻子（译注：指《白》的结尾），你把那叫做幸福的结尾？

kk：可是他们彼此相爱！你更愿意以丈夫在华沙妻子在巴黎作为结尾是吗？——他们两个人都是自由的却不相爱？

问：《白》的主题一打眼看上去并不是十分明朗。

kk：它的主题可以在很多地方找得到：在丈夫和妻子之间，在二者的在内心目标和经济方面。《白》更多是讲述不平等而非平等。在波兰，我们说“每个人都希望自己比其他人更平等”。实际上这是一句谚语。它表明平等是不可能的：平等与人的本性是相抵触的。因此，共产主义会失败。但是，那时一个美好的世界，应该付出一切努力去实现平等……我们一直这样想，可是，很幸运，我们实现不了它。因为，真正的平等会导致类似集中营的东西出来。

问：到目前为止，你已经在法国生活一年了。在法国生活的经历改变了你对自由——即《蓝》的主题的理解了吗？

kk：没有，因为如同另外两部一样，这部电影不是对政治指手画脚。我想探讨的是内在的自由。如果我想探讨的是外在的自由——社会运动的自由——我就选择波兰了。因为很明显，那里的情形仍然没有起色。我打几个有点愚蠢的比喻。你可以使用你的护照去美国，我不能。你可以用在法国赚到的钱买一张去波兰的机票，但是反过来就行不通了。但是，内在的自由是普遍存在的。

问：《蓝》似乎是《双生薇萝尼卡》的姊妹篇，而后者本身是从《十诫》的第９诫中抽取了一个元素（患心脏病的歌手）。而《十诫》又是从……我们可以这样接着说下去。似乎每部电影都为你的另一部电影勾勒了要点。

kk：的确，因为我总在拍同一部电影！因此，也就不会有什么新鲜的东西。所有的导演都在拍同一部电影，作者们也总是在写同一本书。我这里说的“作者”不是指“专家”而是指“作家”。说得再详细点，我说得是作家而不是艺术家。

问：《三色》中每一部都是在不同的国家拍摄的。对欧洲电影产业来说，这是特例吗？

kk：欧洲电影产业这样一个概念完全是虚假的。实际上只有好电影和坏电影之分。我们在瑞士拍摄《红》是因为资金原因——瑞士是合拍国。但是，不仅仅因为这个。我们曾考虑过，哪里更像《红》这个故事发生的地方？我们想到了英格兰，然后是意大利。后来，我们认为瑞士更合适，主要是因为那是一个打算偏离中心一点的国家。证据就是，那儿的全民投票关心的是这个国家与欧洲的关系。瑞士从孤独中学到了很多。它是欧洲中部的一座岛。而《红》是一个关于孤独的故事。

问：不说法语而在法国拍片难吗？

kk：的确，但是我没有办法。在这儿我能得到投资，在其他地方，我办不到。同时，在这里工作比在我十分熟悉的地方工作有意思。它开阔了我的视野。我发现了一个如此不同寻常的世界，它的语言如此复杂和丰富！这尤其表现在当我提议——我当然是使用波兰语——对对话稍微做一点改动时。这时，每个人都操着法语提出２０种修改方式来回应我。

问：在《三色》中你虚构并谱写了一部欧洲交响曲……

kk：就像你采访过各式各样的人，他们操着法语、英语、波兰语以及德语。我们造就了一种氛围，每个人都可以在其中惬意地生活。和不同国家的人生活在一起，对我来说没有障碍。

问：你觉得你欧洲化吗？

kk：不，我觉得我波兰化。说得再清楚些，我的感觉就是，我来自波兰东北部的一个小村子，在那里我拥有一座房子，我喜欢待在那里。但是，我不在那里工作。我出去伐木。

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原文：

Interview: Three colors trilogy

Q: Why were you interested in the French motto: Liberty, equality, fraternity?

KK: Precisely for the same reason that I was interested in "Decalogue." In ten phrases, the ten commandments express the essential of life. And these three words -- liberty, equality, and fraternity -- do just as much. Millions of people have died for those ideals. We decided to see how these ideals are realized practically and what they mean today.

Q: So what interests you is life. Is this why you left your first job as a designer to go to school in Lodz and specialize in documentaries?

KK: I wanted to describe the world at the same time, through image, express what I felt. It was the time of the great documentary filmmakers: Richard Leacock, Joris Ivens. Today, television has put an end to this type of filmmaking. The television industry doesn't like to see the complexity of the world. It prefers simple reporting, with simple ideas: this is white, that's black; this is good, that's bad...

Q: How did you conceive the films in relation to each other?

KK: We looked very closely at the three ideas, how they functioned in everyday life, but from an individual's point of view. These ideas are contradictory with human nature. When you deal with them practically, you do not know how to live with them. Do people really want liberty, equality, fraternity? Is it not some manner of speaking? We always take the individual, personal point of view.

Q: So you turned to fiction -- yet you stick very close to real life.

KK: I think life is more intelligent than literature. And working so long in documentaries became both a blessing and an obstacle in my work. In a documentary, the script is just to point you in a certain direction. One never knows how a story is going to unfold. And during the shoot, the point is to get as much material as possible. It's in the editing that a documentary takes place. Today, I think I still work in the same way. What I shoot isn't really the story -- the footage just contains the elements that will make up the story. While shooting, details which weren't in the script are often thrown in. And during the editing process a lot is cut out.

Q: If you took this way of thinking far enough, don't you think you might end up using scripts merely as pretexts?

KK: No, not at all. Absolutely not. For me the script is key because it's the means to communicating with the people I work with. It may be the skeleton, but it is the indispensable foundation. Later, many things can be changed: Certain ideas may be eliminated, the end may become the beginning, but what's between the lines, all the ideas -- that stays the same.

Q: You call yourself an artisan, as opposed to an artist. Why?

KK: Real artists find answers. The knowledge of the artisan is within the confines of his skills. For example, I know a lot about lenses, about the editing room. I know what the different buttons on the camera are for. I know more or less how to use a microphone. I know all that, but that's not real knowledge. Real knowledge is knowing how to live, why we live... things like that.

Q: Did you shoot the films separately, with an interval between them?

KK: We started with "Blue" and shot from September to November 1992. On the last day, we started "White" because in the courtroom scene, you see the characters from both films together. As it is very difficult to shoot in a courtroom in Paris, since we had the permit, we took advantage of it; we immediately shot about 30% of "White" because the first part takes place in Paris. Then we left for Poland to finish it. After ten days of rest, we went to Geneva to start "Red" which was shot in Switzerland from March to May 1993.

Q: Was the screenplay of the three films fully written?

KK: It was completed well before the first day of shooting, six months before. You cannot forget the scouting for locations which takes time. You have to think in terms of 100 sequences, three countries and three different directors of photography. You have to organize and prepare in order to arrive at what was agreed with the producer.

Q: Did you have the same crew on all three films?

KK: The directors of photography were different: Slawomir Idziak for "Blue," Edward Kojinski for "White" ( he worked several times with Andrzej Wajda) and Piotr Sobocinski, who is young but very talented, for "Red." The others, for sound, set design, and music are the same. It worked well for "The Decalogue" so we kept the same principle.

Q: Did you start editing before having completed shooting three films?

KK: Yes, I was editing during the shooting from the first week. I even edited during the breaks.

Q: The more concrete and tangible your films are, the more metaphysical they seem to become. You take more and more close-ups, you're ever nearer to the characters and objects: you seem to be searching for something beyond the concrete or the physical.

KK: Of course I'd like to get beyond the concrete. But it's really difficult. Very difficult.

Q: What is it you're trying to capture?

KK: Perhaps the soul. In any case, a truth which I myself haven't found. Maybe time that flees and can never be caught.

Q: Do the names of the characters have a particular meaning?

KK: I tried to think of names which would be both easy for the audience to remember and reflective of the character's personalities. In real life, there are names that surprise us because they don't seem to suit the person at all.

Q: For "The Double Life Of Veronique" -- did you have Veronique from the Gospel in mind?

KK: Later on I did, but not when I chose the name, and although it had been unconscious, it seemed like a good association to have made. For "Red," I asked Irene Jacob what her favorite name was as a little girl. At the time, it was "Valentine." So, I named her character Valentine. For "White," I named the hero Karol (Charlie in Polish) as a tribute to Chaplin. This little man, who is both naive and shrewd, has a
"chaplinesque" side to him.

Q: "The Decalogue" was full of chance meetings -- some of them failures and some successful. And in "Three Colors", from one film to another, people seem to run into each other.

KK: I like chance meetings - life is full of them. Everyday, without realizing it, I pass people whom I should know. At this moment, in this cafe, we're sitting next to strangers. Everyone will get up, leave, and go on their own way. And they'll never meet again. And if they do, they won't realize that it's not for the first time. In the trilogy, these encounters have less importance than in "A Short Film About Killing" in which the fact that the future killer and the lawyer fail to meet each other is key. In the trilogy, they're included mainly for the pleasure of some cinephiles who like to find points of reference from one film to another. It's like a game for them.

Q: Each film has a scene with an elderly person trying to put the bottle in the trash can. What does this mean?

KK: I merely thought that old age awaits all of us and that one day we won't have enough strength left to put a bottle in a container. In "Blue," to avoid having this scene seem moralistic, I over-exposed the image. I figured that this way Julie doesn't see the woman, and doesn't realize what lies ahead for herself. She's too young. She doesn't know that one day she's going to need someone's help. In "White" Karol smiles
because he realizes this is the one person worse off than he is. In "Red" we see something about Valentine's compassion.

Q: Valentine knows the price of fraternity and Julie will learn to love again. The same can be said for Karol and Dominique. Even when you're talking about liberty and fraternity, love is the final word.

KK: To tell you the truth, in my work, love is always in opposition to the elements. It creates dilemmas. It brings in suffering. We can't live with it, and we can't live without it. You'll rarely find a happy ending in my work.

Q: Yet the screenplay for "Red" seems to say that you believe in fraternity. And the end of "Blue" is optimistic since Julie is able to cry.

KK: You think so? For me optimism is two lovers walking into the sunset arm in arm. Or maybe into the sunrise -- whatever appeals to you. But if you find "Blue" optimistic, then why not? Paradoxically, I think the real happy ending is in "White" which is, nevertheless, a black comedy.

Q: A man who goes to visit his wife in prison. You call that a happy ending?

KK: But they love each other! Would you rather have the story finish with him in Warsaw and her in Paris - with both of them free but not in love?

Q: The theme of equality is not, at first glance, very obvious in "White."

KK: It can be found in different areas: between husband and wife, at the level of ambitions and in the realm of finance. "White" is more about inequality than equality. In Poland we say "Everyone wants to be more equal than everyone else." It's practically a proverb. And it shows that equality is impossible: it's contradictory to human nature. Hence, the failure of Communism. But it's a pretty word and every effort must be made to help bring equality about... keeping in mind that we won't achieve it -- fortunately. Because genuine equality leads to set-ups like concentration camps.

Q: You've lived in France for a year now. Has the experience modified your notion of liberty -- hence the tenor of "Blue?"

KK: No, because this film, like the other two, has nothing to do with politics. I'm talking about interior liberty. If I had wanted to talk about exterior liberty -- liberty of movement -- I would have chosen Poland. Since things obviously haven't changed there. Let's take some stupid examples. With your passport, you can go to America. I can't. With a French salary you can buy a plane ticket to Poland, but this would be
impossible vice-versa. But interior liberty is universal.

Q: "Blue" seems like a continuation of "The Double Life of Veronique," which itself picks up on an element from "Decalogue 9" (the cardiac singer). We could go on and on... Each film seems to give you a rough outline for another film.

KK: Of course, because I'm always shooting the same film! There's nothing original in that though. All filmmakers do the same, and authors are always writing the same book. I'm not talking about "professionals," I mean authors. Careful, I said authors, not artists.

Q: Each color is shot in a different country. Was this out of duty to the European film industry?

KK: The idea of a European film industry is completely artificial. There are good and bad films: that's it. Take "Red" -- we filmed in Switzerland for economic reasons -- Switzerland is co-producing. But it's not only that. We started thinking... Where would a story like "Red" take place? We thought of England, then Italy. Then we decided that Switzerland was perfect, mainly because it's a country that wants to stay a bit off-center. The proof is the referendum concerning its connection to Europe. Switzerland leans towards isolation. It's an island in the middle of Europe. And "Red" is a story of isolation.

Q: Is it difficult to shoot in France without speaking the language?

KK: Of course, but I have no choice. Here I get financing. In other places, I don't. At the same time, it's more interesting than working somewhere I know too well. It enriches my perspective. I'm discovering a world that's so different, a language that's so complicated and rich! This is shown when I suggest -- in Polish of course -- a slight change in the dialogue. Everyone comes back at me, in France, with suggestions for twenty ways to change it.

Q: You've created a European symphony during your three shoots...

KK: As you may have gathered, we speak French, English, Polish, and German. We've created an atmosphere in which everyone is comfortable. I have no problem being with people of different nationalities.

Q: Do you feel European?

KK: No. I feel Polish. More specifically, I feel like I'm from the tiny village in the Northeast of Poland where I have a house and where I love to spend time. But I don't work there. I cut wood.